Jen Coken: Dealing with Imposter Syndrome

Keri Norley 0:02

Hello, hello, hello and welcome to the wealth Alchemist podcast. My name is Keri Norley and today I have this beautiful woman, Jen Coken on the platform on the stage with me. And she is recognized by ABC, MSNBC and TEDex as a speaker, peak performance coach and imposter syndrome expert. She's also a comedian who works with people who are looking to make a bigger difference. She shatters the limiting beliefs that play people at this level with her unique style centered around ruthless compassion. I love that Jen talks imposter syndrome. And that's what we are going to talk about today. And before I even got on this call with you, Jen, I had just said this, and I said, we're gonna record it anyway, I'm gonna say what's happening. I am in Miami currently in between two crypto events, and I'm about to go on to the biggest stage I have actually ever been on personally. And it's my first time on a local stage, there's about 3000 people that are supposed to be approximately at this event. And it’s a virtual as well. So it's global and local. And I have definitely been having my imposter syndrome stuff come up. So it was no funny, strange coincidence that Jen somehow even though I blocked out this week on the schedule, managed to get onto the podcast today. There is no doubt in my mind that we're having this conversation for the right reason today. And so today, I welcome Jen onto the call to have a conversation about imposter syndrome. And we're gonna have a little chat about what's going on in the world with my life as I step onto the stage of crypto stage. So welcome, welcome. Welcome, welcome.

Jen Coken 1:45

Well, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I am so loving being here. And I said to you, that although wasn't the biggest stage, I was keynoting this morning. And as I'm getting ready, I literally did want to do my makeup three different times. I was like sweating. I thought it was having a hot flash, like, am I having a hot flash? Like sweating? I'm a little shaky, you know? And I thought, oh, and I'm going over this topic in my mind, which I've spoken about. I can't even count how many times I'm like, oh, it's imposter syndrome. So I will say to my friend, what I say to my clients, which is if you don't have some kind of imposter syndrome, you aren't playing a big enough game. I'm just gonna say you're not human. But you're not human, for sure. And you're not playing a big enough game because it always happens when we're stretching ourselves. It's amazing. So before we even drop into the conversation like number, can you please explain like what so the people who are listening if they don't know what this means? What is imposter syndrome? Yeah, so the word syndrome, isn't it? We really should be saying imposter phenomenon. But the SEO ranks dang high for imposter syndrome, doesn't it? Because it's not a medically diagnosed situation. It is a phenomenon. And it's a phenomenon that happens for people that are high achievers who feel like oh, I might be a fraud. Oh, I might be found out. And it was originally discovered or I'm gonna say named by two psychological researchers back in the 70s. Pauline Clance and Suzanne IMEs. So that's what it was first discovered, and they thought originally, it was mostly women that had it not men, because men have more testosterone and testosterone is thought of as the confidence hormone. But in fact, according to research, 70% of most people who have a career have experienced self doubt or experienced fraud in some way, shape, or form. Now, that was kind of the beginning of it. All right. And you're not alone. We're not alone. Margaret Chan, who was head of the World Health Organization experienced it she didn't like being called an expert. And given what we just went through over the last couple years being having someone who considers themselves an expert at the head of the World Health Organization kind of want that. I'm just saying, Maya Angelou felt that Oh, even writing her 12th book, she was afraid of a knock on the door to say you run a game on everybody. Albert Einstein, E equals MC squared much. He felt like he was an involuntary swindler. And I have a Google alert that pops up. There's all kinds of famous people that you'd never think of, that have the same kind of doubts that you and I have. So that's where it comes from, like the beginning of it, the origins of imposter phenomenon or syndrome. Yeah, it's a big one. And it's interesting because I like you said, it really shows up for most like I know, for me and others in the industry who are in stretching ourselves. It's like, Oh, my God, who am I is, this is the question that usually comes to me when I know it's imposter syndrome. Who am I to be doing this? Right? It's like, Who the hell do I think I am? I'm just as this you know, like, it comes to me like I'm just a human who has human stuff. And somehow people kind of think that I know something. And I'm like, I suppose when I sit into it, I'm like, I get I do know something right. Like, I have positioned myself to know things.

Keri Norley 5:04

And I do know things I've studied and all these things. But the inner dialogue comes like who you are, who the hell do you think you are? And so, I'd love to hear a little bit about like, how cuz I also know I think for you. There's multiple I think I feel like there's multiple different avenues or different I guess, almost like archetypes that you look at with imposter syndrome. Is that right? Yeah, well, let's talk about first the neuroscience of imposter syndrome. This is why, you know, you look on the internet, there's 2.4 million tips to overcome imposter syndrome. And then when I Googled, well, I'm trying to disrupt it 6.4 million more hits on disrupting imposter syndrome. But at all, nobody talked about disrupting it, they came back to overcoming it. And trying to overcome something that's based in neuroscience won't last or make a difference. So think about it, the brain, the brain, and I'm saying the brain, not your brain, the brain that keeps the thing called you alive. 40,000 years of evolution, its job is to do just that. Its job is to determine threat, kind of scan the horizon. Oh, gosh, that thing coming at me, is that going to eat me? Or am I going to eat it? But the kicker about the brain is it can't tell the difference between real and imaginary. In fact, we now know that whatever the memories are, that we have, the brain isn't even determining reality at the moment. It's taking everything through its filters, right. So what happens is when the brain experiences threat, when it experiences an unwanted emotion, like embarrassment, disappointment, or thinking about my gosh, I'm gonna be on the biggest stage I've ever been on before. Who am I? It thinks that's an actual threat coming at you. So the body's physical response, the sweaty armpits, the butterflies in anxiety, yeah, waking up in anxiety, waking up in a cold sweat imagining everything that could go wrong, because the brains trying to make sure that you have all the doorways out, right? So the moment that those are happening, you're coming by it, honestly, it's simply nerve. It's simply neuroscience and its brain patterns that you are tapping into, in those moments. Now, what most coaches are talking about when they talk about tips, tools and tricks, they're telling you to overcome something and why I don't agree with that is because the thing you're trying to come over, has to stay there. Or they still to go to the stage still have to go to the stage. And if you're trying to manage your emotions don't well, we want to actually do so there's Dr. Valerie young, you know, through decades of research, wrote a book called The Secret thoughts of successful women and she looks at competency types for imposter syndrome newser, the ways that high achievers have attempted to overcome their experience of feeling like a fraud. Those five are people who are perfectionist who try to get everything right 100% of the time. These are also your micromanagers the people that are highly critical of themselves. Second type Superwoman, Superman, got to work all the time, downtime is a waste. I judge myself by how much I work, to their own detriment putting their own passions aside, the soloists the people who hate asking for help, I can do it better myself. I don't trust anyone else to do as good of a job, I can do it faster, better, etc. If I just do it myself. The natural genius, which is something I always identified with because I skipped second grade school came easy to me, also meant I didn't apply myself very hard. But more than that, what I learned through the years, is if I couldn't see a clear pathway from A to B, I would procrastinate, because everything came naturally I should be able to see the path. And it wasn't until I took time to just be still and allow myself because before that I thought procrastination was my superpower. I do my best work when I'm up against the wall, except it stresses the F Atomy. Yes, you know, and it's not productive for me or I'm working on that one I'm working on not procrastinating to the end. I'm like, Oh my God, why does it have to be the last minute Keri it feels shit.

Jen Coken 9:17

Yes, yes, yes. And we can talk more about that. But schedule some still time schedule some time for you just to think, you know, that's what's really, really important. Okay, we went through Superman perfectionist, so it's natural genius. Yep. And then I missing a fifth one. And it will come to me in just a minute. It's not coming to me right now. But let me talk about what I see as the distinct difference, which is, after coaching people 25 years coaching 1000s of people what I have discerned is that most people when something's triggering them, it's based in some memory that they made up a story about that memory from when they were a kid, not dramatic, or traumatic, something innocuous. So for me, my origin story, as it were, is that I was six years old. And I was in love with a boy named Keith. And so as my best friend, and we decided, in Michigan in winter, we were going to playfully chase her on the schoolyard. And then push them down and see who he kissed. So we did that. And my friend Michelle puckered up and he kissed her. And I puckered up and he went, you, huh? Yeah, heartbroken heart. Oh, the final one is the expert. That was the other one that I missed the expert, which is the one we're going to talk about with you. The expert has to have a lot of letters after their name, they have to know everything before they feel set to go. Right. So going back to my origin story, this, this happened, and I was embarrassed. So the brain has an unwanted emotion, embarrassment, disappointment, my friends laughed, because all the other kids were watching. They laughed. And the decision I made was I'm never putting myself out there like that again. So what did I spend most of my career doing? getting other people elected in politics, pushing other people's agenda. And when it came time for me to take center stage? Well, that's when imposter syndrome rears its ugly head. And it's not in a position of authority. Neither one person, it's in group, like when I was getting ready to speak this morning, because the brain thinks it's about to be ridiculed. So I'm going to stop there, because I said a lot. But we can slice and dice it any way you want. It's so good. And I can feel myself and each one of those. Yeah, I'd say we all probably have some level of each one of those. Like, there's definitely days that I'm like, oh, I need to feel like I just need to keep going. There's so much to do. And like stop, take a breath. There's really not that much to do. What do you need to get done? Take the steps, right? Yeah. And it's been a thing I've had to train myself on for sure. Because I can get into the overwhelm. And I'm like, Keri really have like three things. Just get them? The mind right. Okay, so let's hear I want to hear what you have to say them to me as we're going on to the stage Yes, expert thing and how to overcome these like, so how do you work with people to overcome? It's a no no, not overcome. Sorry, you don't like that word disruptive to disrupt I grew up route or disrupt, well, not even coming through, because this is what I say I take people from being average leaders to being great leaders, average leaders deal inside of a box called knowledge of what they already know, or what more they can read and add to that box of knowledge, right? Or they've seen other leaders, and this is the way other people do it. And so I should do it that way. But it's still all inside of a realm called knowledge, which makes sense. I mean, I should not get in the cockpit of a plane and tell somebody, I'm going to fly the plane because I don't know how. So it's good to know that I don't know how to fly the plane. What takes people from average to great is being able to see the unseen. Being in a mode of discovery, being willing to, you know, look and discover and wonder about where this all comes from. So let's talk about this perspective of being the expert. How long do you suppose that's been around?

Keri Norley 13:15

It's funny that you thought that we went to there because for me in a lot of ways I have I mean, I think about this if I look back at my my life, I have more degrees and diplomas and do you missions Oh, my God, I early childhood degree. And then diplomas in leadership and creative expression message and you're gonna find therapies I've done, the more certificates then I could probably list off in here, from health to funk tray to quantum healing to emotional clearing all these things, right. So like, I mean, it's probably like, every year, there's probably something new. But I don't look at it for me as needing an expert, like, I actually could care less about a certificate on the wall. Because it's why you wouldn't if you look at any of my, I guess, websites or anything like that, I don't even list them, I don't think because for me, it's just I just love education. I love learning more. And I would actually normally say like, even to the point where like, I love

Keri Norley 14:15

the scene and Good Will Hunting. When Matt Damon's like, you know, for like pennies, you know, for dollars on my library card. Look at them apples, right? Like I have her but I did it because I've got my Harvard degree right from from the library. Well, you just had to go and spend 100k to do it. Right, right. I kind of have that feeling. It's just like if you're educated and you learn something, and you embody it and you go and you can express it, you have the right to teach it. So what's the big deal about getting up on stage today?

Jen Coken 14:15

Ah, see if that was the case. You wouldn't be dealing with this right now. So knowledge doesn't equal power. I get what you're saying. There's a lot of people. You know, one of the assessment tools I use with my clients is Clifton Strengths which assesses talent. And there are people who are learners and who want her just love learning. You could be somebody who loves learning. But I'm suspicious because you're like, Well, who am I to like, get on stage with these people? Why are they listen to me? Right? You're right. So where does that come from?

Keri Norley 15:15

So I think for me right now, one of the things is like, I actually feel really great about the workshop that I'm running. Like, I feel like, Yes, I can deliver this content. This is in my lane. Right when they asked me to be on the panel for the defi panel, which, by the way, if you're listening, I don't know, it's still not confirmed from a day out from this. They're still not confirmed. But this is the stuff that's coming up from Iran. It was like, Oh, what if they ask me something? I don't know. Right? And I am sitting amongst all the sudden people who've been in this for a long time. But the reality is like defi, in and of itself has been around for like three years. Like it's not even like a timing issue. And it's it changes every day, every day, new stuff comes into this field. So like on a logical perspective, I understand that on a logical perspective, I've been studying this for like, half the amount of time that it's been around, and I've been utilizing it and doing it on a logical perspective. But then I'm like, but what if I don't know, when if they asked me something? I don't know. What if those other people know more? What if they get just technical stuff? And I'm over my head and I look like a fool.

Jen Coken 16:14

Okay, good. So there's two clues here for us. One is feeling foolish. And one is not knowing the answer. So if you close your eyes for a minute you drop into your body when you think about not knowing the answer and feeling foolish. Where do you feel that in your body it's, it's it kind of runs through my body, but mostly in my heart, it feels like butterflies are like electricity through my body. Okay, great. So electricity through your heart. So keep your eyes closed, and go back to the earliest memory you have where you felt foolish. And you might only be able to connect with it through that experience in your heart of feeling when your heart was tight or closed or that electricity

Keri Norley 16:58

It's funny, because I can send like I'm on a playground and I'm like, Is this me or Jen? Jen, tell me the story. That's why I'm going there. But I keep going back so like me on a playground somewhere like I'm okay playground.

Jen Coken 17:12

You're at a school playground playground. Okay, great. So I want you to really see the scene. And I want you to describe it to me like you're watching a scene in a movie. You know what's happening? What are you wearing? If you can tell how many kids what time of day what's the equipment on the playground?

Keri Norley 17:28

It's funny because I haven't connected in with like, where I guess where I am in this but I definitely it's like, like the lunchtime or there's a lot of kids out there's I see Foursquare I see kickball. I just see everybody and kind of chaos everywhere. Mm hmm. And what are you? Where are you? I am I I sense that I'm playing Foursquare.

Jen Coken 17:48

You're playing Foursquare. Okay, great. And are you free and freely running around?

Keri Norley 17:59

Okay, the next i Okay. So I don't have the visual very well. So I'm it's okay things right. That's fine. I'm sensing that I just got a ball knocked into my face. And it's like blood. I don't remember this happening. But this is what I'm sensing.

Jen Coken 18:09

Okay, great. So you're sensing that a ball got knocked into your face? And the moment that you got hit in the face of the ball? What do you suppose you decided about yourself or about life or about playing?

Keri Noley 18:30

There if I go if I go into the game, if I play the game, I'll get knocked out.

Jen Coken 18:38

Awesome. There you have it. So when you think about if I really go in and play the game, your eyes just got really bright. You'll get knocked out. How does that layer on top of your life? When if you held back because you figured you'd get knocked out? Or where did you get knocked out when you went to play the game?

Keri Norley 19:00

Mm hmm. I mean, like, it makes sense here, right? Like, I'll get knocked out and we'll be able to get back on these stages. If I go in and I mess this up.

Jen Coken 19:10

Yep, you won't be able to play again.

Keri Norley 19:11

I won't be able play again. And I would say well, even it took me a while to like do things like my book and my podcast because if I went and played the game then I was gonna get disowned by my family. Ah, so it took me a long time to get through that one to say yes to it because I was afraid I'd get locked out. Yeah, and even then, right like writing the book and everything. I did it eventually. But like, putting your your words on a piece of paper and having people read it like oh my god, someone's gonna knock me out. Someone's gonna say you're dumb dumb. Someone's gonna say you don't know what you're doing. Someone's gonna say you're jackass. Someone's gonna say something. Right? Everybody's got some judgment somewhere along the way. Yeah, putting up words onto a piece of pieces of paper.

Jen Coken 19:54

Frickin frickin humans here in a few minutes are judgmental, judgmental creatures.

Keri Norley 20:01

We are You know, even this show, right? Like some someone out there listening right now is probably judging me at some level.

Jen Coken 20:05

Absolutely. Every time I lead a seminar leader, what a webinar about imposter syndrome I start off saying there's nothing for you to agree or disagree with what I'm saying isn't the truth. And I always see a comment. I don't agree with you. I'm like, there you go. So back to you. Let me ask you something. You're afraid to play because you're afraid you're going to get knocked out. But who are you at your core? Like really? When you're truly being yourself? Like, I'm amazing. I mean, aren't you super freakin? But aren't you super freakin playful? Oh, yes. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's who you really are. So you were playing and having fun, except that little kid said, Oh, if I play, I'll get knocked out. But who you really are super playful. So now what there is for you to go to work on when it's just to notice the triggers, and particularly where you're feeling in your heart, like, ooh, that's that pattern again. And just start noticing the red flags and early warning signs. And what I say to people is, if you imagine I forgot this is a broadcast, right? It's a video so people can see me. Okay, great. Yep. Okay, great. Audio and video. So I'm holding up a, what is this? It's an orange. You know, it's like a thing for your nails. So I'm holding up a stick. It's a straight line for people that are listening. If there's a line of this is presence, okay? This is the line of presence. Everything below the line is all reactivity triggers, you know, life, the average human brain is 50 to 60,000 thoughts a day, yours is probably like 100,000 thoughts a day. 80 to 85% are negative 90 to 95% are repetitive, we are screwed. We don't stand a chance. Because all the brain has been doing is discerning threat and trying to keep us safe, which in the moment you got hit in the nose with the ball. You who knows what you felt embarrassment, disappointment, anger, fear, etc. Brands like ooh, don't want to don't want to do that. Again. I've got to be careful. Whenever I'm really playing Fallout. I could get hit in the news with the ball, right? But all that's reactivity. All of it is reactivity. The moment we notice we're having, excuse me a reaction. We're no longer reacting. We're human with reaction. Oh, far out. Okay, now I'm present. Okay, now I you know, I was standing in the bathroom trying to put on my eyeliner, which was like, I was like drawing Vincent van Gogh on my eyes until I finally got my act together. I swear to God. And I said, Oh, that's what it is. Now I'm present. Okay, the question then can become because if below the line is all reactivity, what's above the line is everything and anything is actually nothing. And great masters need nothing to create. Right? Great, great artists need a blank canvas human beings create with language. So we can ask ourselves the question, the moment that we catch the reaction, we're present, we can have presence. And I like to say presence of mind, body, soul and spirit mind to think clearly a body to embody the kind of leader we want to be, so to speak our truth and spirit to move through us. If you don't like spirit or God, you call Bob your dog tree. I don't care. But it's being able to hear that still small voice. So if you weren't worried about protecting yourself from playing for fear, you're going to get knocked out. How do you want to show up in the world powerfully.

Keri Norley 23:25

Presence, like, it's interesting, because the thing that I've been playing with over the last few days I've been in this, it's like, okay, imagining this, like if I imagined myself on the stage. And I can imagine myself in peace and presence, like an open channel. Like nothing else, frickin matters, except for what's coming through me. That's how I want to feel through all of it through all of life. Really.

Jen Coken 23:48

You're creating that right now. It's not how you want to feel because when you say that's how I want to feel it's as if you have nothing to do with it. That's what you're creating right now. It's peaceful presence and open channel and you know what, you might get bumped in the nose, but who cares? Who cares? Because you're being true to yourself, like, Oops, another bottle of face whoops, another ball to the face. Whoops. You know, for me it was I took on being a tall poppy in 2019 Got my head lopped off this way, in that way. Oops. Oops, there it goes again. And there it goes again. Okay. There it goes. So now the practices how quickly can you get from below the line to above the line? How quickly can you catch the activity and return yourself to that TrueNorth for you have peaceful presence being an open channel like a taproot so deep into the ground, that it doesn't matter what's coming your way because you know you're anchored. Hmm. I have that playful in there too. Okay, peaceful, open, peaceful and playful. Yeah, I tell people to like pick three and stick with them because my overachievers want way more on like stop, want to be peaceful, playful, joyful, curious, determined and committed, and then only better like so. Why don't you Oh people killing me Smalls. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, in a nutshell, that's the work that I do with my clients when I do the imposter syndrome workshop, right? Because what we're doing is we're awakening greatness. Average leaders think knowledge is power, great leaders Trust, the process of discovery and wonder and really get that seeing the unseen is their key to a competitive edge to exponential leadership, and things work 10 times faster. I love what you said, seeing the unseen go further into that. So the leaders, the great leaders say seeing the unseen. Yeah, because you couldn't see what we just went through. Right? It was it was hidden from your view. So there's a co Han that says bird to air fish to water human being unto itself, bird doesn't know it's an air till it's not. Fish doesn't know what's in water until it's not a human being doesn't know it's having a human experience until we're dead. By that time. It's a little late. So when you're in this moment of curiosity and discovery, and truly when you're in a group of people committed to that are working with a coach like me, or like you, that also is committed to people seeing the unseen. I don't give people what they cannot see, I ask questions. Hmm, what do you see what happened? So where does that map on your life? Or like, oh, well, this conference? Exactly. Logic becomes inescapable. So that's what I mean by seeing the unseen. It's, you know, you can't see the back of your head. Unless I'm looking in a mirror. It can't turn around quick enough. We wanted to do is get you to see the back of your head in a moment, but it's only a moment. So you got the tip of something. But the tip of the iceberg isn't what sunk the Titanic. It was everything else below the line that did, right. So that's why all this reactivity that's happening at 8590 95%. We want to keep catching, catching, catching, catching, catching.

Keri Norley 27:01

So the intention being that I feel like for anyone listening because this is for everybody. Right? Me? You happen to be the undoing today. Yeah, exactly. I know I'm not alone. I'm okay. So I feel into the Who am I like, Oh, I see that. I feel that okay, got it. I'm in the anxiety, I'm in the whatever, whatever the symptom is that I'm feeling like, Okay, here's the Who am I part. And then I immediately so this is what I've been working on. So basically doing this thing, right like that I go into, okay, the peaceful present state, and I just come into this place, my body and I allow myself to be there in this moment.

Jen Coken 27:38

Yes. And so I always, you know, I have clients that will sit in meetings and put their fingers together because they have to remind themselves to stay above the line, because they're reacting. So I have one client who when she was nine, her version of imposter syndrome is she really identified with a competency type of perfect being a perfectionist, getting it right. So she's nine. And she brings home a C on her report card. And her dad's a military guy, Kathy, you know, Katherine, what's up with the see? And she goes, Well, Dad, you know, it's average. Give me 1500 words on being mediocre. Average is mediocre. Hmm, like embarrassed, disappointed dad, who's her idol? I never want to get it wrong. I'm always going to get it right. I'm going to know all the answers, which propelled her to great heights. This is why I call it you make imposter syndrome, your superpower. Because that thing, that you're compensating for that the way you became to compensate for who you thought you were lacking? For you, it was playful. I think at that time, when you were a little one has become kind of a superpower for you and propelled you to great heights. But for my client, it sucked. She working for her because she was always making sure everyone else got it, right. And if she got one little thing wrong, she would beat herself up for days. And she was really her own worst enemy. So she would sit in meetings, right like this, like recognizing the moments where she was below the line body sensations, moods, attitudes, the thoughts she was thinking, and so part of it is you look for the red flags and early warning signs. And then she would ask herself, well, if all this wasn't there, we moved all of it away. How do you want to show up, but her first answer was curious. And I said, Okay, this is the sad part. How are you going to practice being curious? If I was a fly on the wall? How would I see you being curious? And I don't know. I don't know. Well, what if I started my conversations with? I'm curious, did you say x to mean y? Nope, I didn't. I said X to say X. Oh, okay. And she stopped taking things personally. And she stopped making assumptions. So for you, when you think about, it's not just dropping in your body, what's a practice in real time, in reality, distance, time and form that someone could witness you practicing and you're not stuck with that practice. you experiment with it? So what would be something you would do to really have you embody peace? Peaceful, playful and open?

Keri Norley 30:11

Something that I would do as you're saying a practice I would an action? Yep. In real time and distance time and formal, playful and open. My quantum flow practice, what's that? It's a movement practice that brings me into presence is can be fun.

Jen Coken 30:28

Well, what if you're on stage? And you're in front of 3000 people? I don't know that it's breath, then it comes down to breath. Okay, great. So what kind of breath?

Keri Norley 30:39

Got a short one, a big one a deep, like a deep breath.

Jen Coken 30:43

Okay, great. So that's the practice is to take a deep breath, when you notice that. Ah, you might want to add some sound to that. Hmm, you're not going to do that on stage. Of course. You know, it could be curling your toes, it could be squeezing your book closed, because that makes you giggle. Like he I'm going to squeeze my butt close. I don't know. Cuz that's kind of silly. Nobody else knows I'm doing candles on stage. But I do. Ah, you know, my husband's gonna be happy. I don't know. He'd bring like my, one of my big things is, you know, is bringing play into thing. So some something that you can practice. Now I'd say to you, all right, Keri, you're going to go off and practice those deep breaths, you come back and you're like, Well, it worked the first time it didn't work after that, great. We're not going to use that anymore. Clearly, that is not a strong enough action to intervene and disrupt that brain pattern. Let's brainstorm some more. And then you pick another one to go off and practice with because it's all about experimentation. not stuck with anything and maybe peaceful, open and playful, isn't it for you? Maybe it's something else? I don't know. You know, so it's all about experimentation and recognizing that as humans, we're not some fixed object, like the computer screen or the microphone. That's why it's called neuroplasticity, because your brain is malleable, therefore, you're malleable. Hmm.

Keri Norley 32:04

I love it. Okay, I have another question. Yes. You mentioned warning signs. Are there common warning signs that like across the board, many people have for imposter syndrome type things that make sense?

Jen Coken 32:23

Yeah, um, I don't know. You know, it's distinct for people. So for example, I wouldn't say it's common for everybody. But I had one client who situation happened when she was in fourth grade. And she was embarrassed in front of her class, so much like me, it wasn't she doesn't have imposter syndrome does not arise when she's going to meet with someone of authority. It's when she's thinking about presenting to her peers. And that's why I also say check in with your body. Sometimes for women, a common one is feeling pressure in your throat, because women are trained to you know, be the second and not speak up. And that's not just in this lifetime. This is generational. Right? Well, then we're exchanged as so.

Keri Norley 33:13

It's so funny. When when I found out I was speaking this, like it's all happened pretty fast. It was like three or four weeks ago, I found that I was speaking. And immediately it was like the day after my kids had already had like a cough. Like one of those. I mean, okay, you guys, it wasn't COVID No, I'm not even smirking because of that. Right? They had a cough and I could feel I was like, oh, stay away, not then stay away. But I could feel like my own like it was starting. So the day after this found out of a sudden this cough comes the sore throat comes four days later, I couldn't talk and I was like really, really world. Really, this is what you want to do. To me. I was like, thank God. I have a few weeks to come over. But literally it was I think last week where I stopped having like stroke through lozenges things. Because my throat was so sore. It was like nails going through my throat and I was like you're hilarious. Universe. I get it. I see you. I see you. Well, that's Louise Hays book, right? heal your body. Your life was like, Oh, you don't want me to speak after I just got invited to this speaking gig. Oh, you're so funny. Let me just laugh about that for a minute.

Jen Coken 34:14

Yes, yes. But I also would say to you if you came to me or like what do I do? I would say what aren't you saying? What are you afraid to say? Right? You're gonna get your nose punched. Okay, good. Right out. Say all the things to me that you're afraid to say, Huh? All the things? Mm hmm. Yep. What's you know, what are you afraid of coughing up? Might be one thing I'd ask okay. You have a cough great. It's sort of like a hairball. What's the hairball you're avoiding saying? I don't know what I'm doing. Ah, okay. Got it. You're human. What else?

Keri Norley 34:47

Totally. Totally. I mean, that's what it was like immediately. I just was like, this is I understand that as well like the body and yeah, yeah, it just made me laugh. So I laugh at myself. I'm like, Of course you did. Of course you did body like but it's so true. Like we do these things and symptoms in our bodies to show us like, Oh, yeah. Here's the thing you don't want to look at. Look at me.

Jen Coken 35:09

Yeah, exactly, exactly check in right body is a pendulum. What is the body trying to tell us? That's why I often talk about embodied leadership. That's why when I take people through this guided meditation, it's much longer it's like 10 minutes, but I'm like, notice where you're holding tension in your body. A lot of people literally clench, clench, clench, clench their butt cheeks totally, like clench their butthole. Totally, because that's the root chakra, and it's safety. And I'm afraid, you know, I noticed for myself, I will push myself back. Like, if I start to get triggered, somebody else pointed out to me, they're like, oh, yeah, you pushed yourself back to the table. I'm like, Yeah, I was out of there. I did not want to be there. Or I'm like, Oh, it was that obvious, right?

Keri Norley 35:51

Yeah, it was. Yeah, it was interesting. I remember a while ago, speaking of clenching or buttcheeks this was an interesting thing I'll add here because I think it's a very phenomenal comment that you made. Yeah, um, I went a few years ago to a goddess retreat and we were doing Yoni steams. Yeah, for those of people who don't who are listening who don't know what a Yoni steam is, you literally put yourself over like a hot bowl of steaming bowl of water with usually herbs in it. You open up your Yoni and this woman who was doing them with us. We were talking about eggs, you know, Yoni eggs. And she was like, I don't believe in putting Yoni eggs in and they're like, Ha, that's so interesting why she's like, because women already clench enough. Like you guys are already too tight, you're already holding everything in. If anything, you need to loosen. And in especially, she's like, you know, I think there's there was ways that you can do it like that. It's restful that you're in, you know, that you're using it as something as a tool to help you open. Right, she's like, but you know, there's some people who use it as like a you know, to clench to tighten to, to, and I think for some people who, obviously who have like, issues around comments and things like that, that's an important, but also, she was like, and is it? Like, is that really the tool? Because Are you still actually holding too tight? And so interesting, like how we tend to open like, closed open, I mean, close in, sorry. And so it's just an invitation for everybody here like pay attention right now as we're speaking about this every single human I would say, especially women that's listening like, are you right now clenching your, your anal Yoni area, like holding in because we can all it's definitely something I can think about, like, oh, relax. And when you start to relax there, everything from that point relaxes and opens. Like, this is our seed of creation. And so when we close it, it's like we're closing this this portal of creation, and so and…

Jen Coken 37:42

Money, creation, power and money. Mm hmm. That's money too. Because money is energy. Money's. It's where it's exactly. Yeah, exactly. So a little bit off subject. Not really. Not really, because this is real quickly. You know, people are always when I meditate, you know, or listening to other people doing meditations are like, imagine a light coming down from heaven. Like I'm pulling light up through my own, from the center of the earth. At the same time, I'm pulling it through heaven, because you can't forget that piece. It is cyclical. It's not just top down. It is bottom up, because that is an open passageway that energy comes in. But yeah, we got off topic, but that's totally I can talk about Yonis for Jays I liked. Um, you know, like my Yoni and I don't care.

Keri Norley 38:30

It was also something that came to me as you were talking to that I don't remember how this even came to me was around. Like, as we move forward into a lot of these imposter syndrome concepts, I think one of the things that I have found, as I move forward, and I think this is something that like, as we're expanding into new territory, right, like, we don't actually know, we don't know, we're expanding somewhere we've never been. And so what I have learned is like we have to actually surrender into it could completely and utterly fail in front of us, we could completely flop it could go completely wrong. Like I could, I'm not going to say all the things I could do wrong, don't want to call it in. But a lot of things could happen that are not of the greatest experience in life. And we can be embarrassed, we can be shamed, we can be judged, we can be all of these things. And I think it's like part of the journey is actually being willing to go and do it anyway.

Jen Coken 39:24

Yeah, yep. Because I would say to somebody, so what, what are you committed to? Are you more committed to making a difference? Are you more committed to playing small? And that's really the moment by that's that whole idea of above the line or below the line? What are you committed to when I say are committed to staying above line? Are you committed to showing up as a peaceful, playful, open warrior goddess on stage having a conversation about crypto, which is a totally talk about seeing the unseen who could have said 10 years ago, five years ago, three years, well, two, four years ago, right, that things would be where they are right now. Now not a heck of a lot of people could have predicted that Reiner morale real co one of my favorite philosophers talks about loving the questions. Love the questions like locked doors to a room because you're not ready to live into the answers. And if you learn to love the questions, then one day before too long, you'll find yourself living into the answers without any effort.

Keri Norley 40:24

Mm hmm. That's beautiful. Like, I mean, the thing that comes to me is like the what if question, you know, it's like we can what if spiral up? I've talked about this on the show before. But for those who haven't heard it, like I say often like I asked the what if question. And the one of oftentimes we asked that what if question, most minds as you said, the 95% will take us downwards and go, What if I fall on my face? What if they hate me? What if they throw apples at me? What if? What if, what if, but like, actually, what if you go the what if what if it's amazing? What if I kick ass? What if they all love me? And they send me amazing gifts and messages? And what if what if…

Jen Coken 41:04

what if you're invited to speak on a stage in Paris? Yes. I know, what if you're invited to be interviewed by Forbes magazine? What you know? Right? I love that. I love that

Keri Norley 41:15

If like if we ask the inquiries. And I think you know, it comes to this, as you said, questions. The quality of your life is dependent on the quality of questions that we ask. And so I think that's a huge thing with our imposter syndrome stuff. It's like I could have I mean, even though I mean, we're sitting and talking about this, but I've been working through this over the last week. And the questions I've been asking, of course, are like these empowering questions that will move me up, as you're saying above the line versus below. And I think that's such a great comment that you made, because it's like, think about what you're asking yourself about, what's your filtering into your mind? Are you setting yourself up through the imposter syndrome to go? around it?

Jen Coken 41:52

Well, are you trying to are you trying to control something that's really this whole business of overcoming is about control. You can't control? embarrassment, you can't control nervousness, it's just like breathing, it's gone have been questioners who are going to be in the face of it. You're going to take a damn breath, and you're going to go forward. Exactly. And you're going to be brilliant, because you are.

Keri Norley 42:19

Yes, amazing. Okay, I know we have to wrap because I know you have to get going. So is there anything you would like to leave everybody with this conversation?

Jen Coken 42:28

Well, I'd give them some places to find out more about me I have a quiz, Jencokenquiz.com J-E-N-C-O-K-E-N quiz.com. If you want to get into the weeds a little bit more about your competency type. And I have a Facebook group make imposter syndrome, your superpower. And they can also find out there are from my website about the workshops that I have coming up. jencoken.com.

Keri Norley 42:54

Fantastic. And any last last words of wisdom.

Jen Coken 42:57

You're human. It's a thing we have to we always forget we're human having you know, our spirit, right and a human existence having a human experience, because that's what we wanted. We wanted to feel those highs and lows. Just don't let yourself drown in the lows, like you said, Ask the question spiral up, start to notice the triggers as triggers distinct from I'm sad. No, you're not you're having the body's having reaction called grief called sadness. It's natural for whatever you're dealing with, you know, went on a date really quickly. Last night with this guy, I thought it was gonna be great. He wasn't for me. And I was very I will you know, I'm not usually this good at it. But I was like, I'm so sorry. But I just don't feel chemistry, like it's anything more than friends. And he said, Well, I'm glad you told me now, you know, and we gave each other a hug and walked away. And I sent him a note and said, Thanks for the coffee conversation. He's like, Yeah, I was gonna tell you the same thing. And I wrote back and said, You're a really sweet guy. And we're going to meet the right woman. You keep putting positive vibes out there. Well, I think I'm going to take a break. I can't stand all this rejection, my feelings getting so hurt. And I was like, Whoa, like, I am so sorry. I really didn't mean to hurt your feelings. But I had sadness for him coming up. That's natural. I care about people. I don't want to hurt that person. But it would have hurt worse if I had kept going on dates with them when I wasn't into them. Yeah, you know. So, cut yourself a break. You’re human, question is always Who are you going to be in the face of whatever you're up to make a difference. That's what I keep telling myself. I'm here to make a contribution, make a difference. And that always has me kind of straighten up my TrueNorth and let all the feelings and reactions lie. Because you know, you'll be up there. You'll have heart palpitations, it's okay. You'll speak anyway.

Keri Norley 44:42

Because you're gonna come out of my mouth. Yes. Exactly. Thank you, Jen. This has been so beautiful, such a wonderful conversation. I'm really excited for everybody who's listened to this. I hope that you've gotten some really great tidbits out of This for yourself. And we love I'm gonna say Jen and I both love hearing from the people who listen to our work. So please feel free to reach out to both of us. Let us know what you've taken away from this and otherwise have a wonderful day wherever you are in the world. Thank you so much Jen for bringing being here and bringing your absolute brilliance to the show. I have loved to being with you.

Jen Coken 45:21

I am loved being with you too. I love being in your orbit. Makes me happy.

Keri Norley 45:25

And thanks for calming my nerves a little bit as I go on stage.

Jen Coken 45:29

You're gonna kick butt girlfriend. I know that already. You're gonna make such a huge difference. I know that. Yeah. You're welcome. You're welcome.